Thanks for a good analysis of the podcast. I've been listening to kpop since 2005 artists like Shinhwa, Sung SiKyung, Kim Kwang-Seok, Tiger JK and Epic High. Tablo has always mixed in English into his music but even if he produced a whole album I English I'd still see him as a k-artist.
I remember when a European artist was accused of copying a TVXQ song, when in truth the writers of the song who were Dutch had sold the rights to both sets of artists for distribution in their respective countries.
There are aspects of kpop that can't be reproduced with Western lyrics - try to imagine all of "sorry sorry" in English rather than the Korean but Western beats can be adapted. I think that's what make kpop so wonderful - taking in influences from everywhere and making its own flavourful.
It's always evolving, and that's how music should be. If everyone had to remain in their little box, that would result in some boring and redundant music...
Another thing that irks me about the podcast was that they didn’t even address the other big part of their performances: their amazing dance sequences! They don’t just sing!
They did. I didn't transcribe the entire podcast. But they did talk about how confusing it was that BTS and Jung-kook performed choreographed moves that K-pop artists are famous for, but then sang some songs in English and apparently the latter threw them off.
This is why even if I can get trained to sing and consume music in different languages and I am black, I'd rather die on a film set. The music people are not as bright and as welcoming as cinema.
Bong Joon Ho cited Alfred Hitchcock as his inspiration countless times and no film journalist made a caricature of him. I can litter my film with Kurosawa's, Joon Ho, Scorsese's lingua as an African filmmaker, people will recognize it(applaud it) but Jungkook cannot sing in his colonizer's language. Interesting.
Who would think a 26 year old Korean boy could move like MJ and sing like JT and Usher, make a bunch of non-Korean artists Billboard chart winners...all because he decided to make an album in English!?! Jungkook is marvelous and I love that he tried something new. All of the BTS members did and it has been beautiful to watch and listen. Still looking forward to 2025, but in the meantime, very grateful!
I'm really glad they each got to do what they wanted prior to enlisting. Their solo projects were all so different, showing the depth they have within their group.
Jae, I'm suddenly feeling like the proverbial old man on his porch, yelling at the youngins to get off his lawn...! Back in 2008, for KoreAm Journal (that old magazine!), I wrote a screed regarding Korean singers singing in English:
My piece is on page 76. But you know, you make an excellent point -- I have never once asked myself, "Why didn't those English-loving miscreants ABBA sing in their Swedish tongue?" For myself, I don't think it's because they were white folks, but rather that they were Swedish and I don't care about Swedes and the preservation of their language (sorry, Swedes!). But I do hold a great deal of cultural baggage for Hangul. It's my first language and damn it, it better not be going anywhere, so when I see it happening in Korea, that hurts. I do find it curious why anybody who is not Korean (or has some deep love for the language) would have misgivings about this, though. You are absolutely correct -- if the critic feels that Korean artists need to stay in their language lane, then that critic should desire the same for any other non-English speaking artist.
Of course, we all know why everyone is singing in English, as you point out, too -- money. Because of your most excellent essay here, I got curious about how ABBA was seen in Sweden:
Excellent piece, Sung. Thank you for sharing! I actually share many of the same sentiments. Even with K-dramas, so many Korean titles and the Romanized versions of English words. We just watched the film "Champion," and that was a case where the Korean title was the same, just written in Hangul. Whenever I see a new word I don't recognize, I have to wonder if it's a new and modern Korean word or if it's an English word that I'm just not getting. lol
I've been writing about music and interviewing musicians from all over the world for a long time, and almost every non-American artist I've talked to mentioned how it was a dream to break the U.S. market. The U.S. is the world's No. 1 market for music, so I understand why people are catering to English speakers. Like most other people from English-speaking countries, we tend to be monolingual. (Not a literal "we" since clearly you and I speak at least 1 foreign language.)
In JK's case with "Golden," he has said that he wasn't making a K-pop record, he was making a pop record for the international market. Is it pop? Is it K-pop? Why not both?
The thing I don't understand is they are talking about JK as doing Kpop but it's an american album, or JK never said it's a Kpop album, the music industry labeled it as Kpop, the journalists labeled it as Kpop.. JK said he wants to do Pop music the american Music, so I don't understand the contreversy here and why is it considered as Kpop , just because he's Korean so he's music must be labeled Kpop?!
The podcast was so cringe! It was clearly uninformed and I appreciate the way you have articulated why. I've been annoyed at the NYTimes for their historically poor work on this topic. There is so much great music from Korea, including the kpop/ idol music, and it's a shame that the focus was on creating artificial boundaries, or upholding irrelevant criteria to determine if it is kpop enough for Jung Kook to sing in English. Ugh!
I fell in love with BTS because of how the sound of their language contributed to their music and showed me something new. I find their music in Korean to be different and more interesting to my ears than their western pop songs, but I can love their English language songs for different reasons. They carry different ideas, memories and musicianship. I fully support BTS in their endeavors to try different things and trust them to put their best foot forward.
An important nuance that I thought was missing in the podcast is how BTS pays tribute to the black music that they are inspired by. Especially in their later music, they seem to have intentionally avoided being appropriative of black music, and in various ways acknowledged their respect towards specific artists directly, unlike some other kpop groups. Even highly westernized pop songs like "Dynamite, Butter and Standing Next to You" are obvious tributes to MJ. I think this context is important to explaining their music choices, the quality of their character and challenging the notion that they are just selling out. Not many can emulate MJ and still maintain their own artistry! Thanks for your writing!
(Tone: Grateful) I absolutely Love K-pop and couldn’t agree more with your analysis and summary of the podcast. Thank you for writing and sharing; I’m very grateful! 🙏
Great article!! As a non-American but also non-Korean fan of kpop it's always very interesting but also super.... idk, irksome? Hearing certain US Americans talk about musicians from other parts of the world because they have this way of speaking as though they're objective and could have no bias leaking into their opinions and its like... idk, when you're used to being the center of the universe, that absolutely can and does give you a biased point of view? It's how a conversation like the Popcast can happen.
like when they talk about the globalisation of kpop, it's only ever focused on the United States and supposedly appealing to Americans- don't get me wrong, a lot of kpop companies absolutely do want a piece of the US pie and understandably- I'm not denying that but it's the notion that they would only release an English song to "hook" America. 1.4 billion people speak english- but yeah, okay. It's only the US that kpop is interested in. I also think people have thos idea that speaking English = white but thats just plainly not true becuase, yk, colonialism.... Also THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING COLONIALISM like again... US American media in particular saying stuff about Korea always makes me so 😒 because well... Obvious reasons.
Also the one other thing which is just small and petty on my part but the comment about Ive made me laugh bc, again, it's centering the US in a convo about kpop but also!! Ive just did a successful, well promoted tour in Australia so the idea they aren't being listened to outside Korea is already disproven like.... cmon NYT, do a lil better. But also it just reminds me of the fact I always remember someone saying bts isn't really successful because they "never get radio play" in the US (as if radio is the way to tell what's hot in 2023 but I digress) and again it made me laugh because I'm not particularly a bts fan but I do like some of their songs, and do you know how I know those songs? MY LOCAL RADIO STATION PLAYS THEM! Jungkook has a little intro where he says the station name and everything, its cute. So again it's just that thing of standing back and understanding that not everywhere is the same and while what she said might be true to some degree in her neck of the woods, down here in mine it doesn't ring true and kpop has been getting decent coverage and playtime for a long time- it's the US media that acts like pop groups being, yk, popular, is strange or scary, when it's actually very common.
Anyway, all in all totally agree and great article- just thought I'd also share my perspective and why it can be frustrating as a global kpop fan.
I was a guest on a podcast that will air in the upcoming days, and we discussed some of the things you mentioned, like how English is the universal language people use to communicate in many ways and also about sometimes the wrong people pontificating about being experts on a culture they only know about in a superficial way. I loved reading your thoughts and appreciate your sharing them with everyone!
The way the podcast strips BTS of their artistry/growth and disallows both their Koreanness *and* English usage is pretty dang narrow and intellectually twisted. Yeesh. Unplug their mics.
I kept waiting for it to get better...but it didn't.
Also, I don't know why she talked about K-pop artists going into acting and then mentioned "Parasite." I mean... what?! There are plenty of idol actors who're huge. She could've mentioned IU, for instance, who was wonderful in "Broker" (among so many other things).
That "Parasite" reference is especially annoying. If the Jeopardy category was artistic excellence, they both would fit, but randomly naming "Things with Koreans" is pretty lame. There are choices galore when it comes to Korean singers who can act and vice versa. (Also enjoyed Bae Suzy in Doona; and Yoona & Junho in King the Land).
Thanks for a good analysis of the podcast. I've been listening to kpop since 2005 artists like Shinhwa, Sung SiKyung, Kim Kwang-Seok, Tiger JK and Epic High. Tablo has always mixed in English into his music but even if he produced a whole album I English I'd still see him as a k-artist.
I remember when a European artist was accused of copying a TVXQ song, when in truth the writers of the song who were Dutch had sold the rights to both sets of artists for distribution in their respective countries.
There are aspects of kpop that can't be reproduced with Western lyrics - try to imagine all of "sorry sorry" in English rather than the Korean but Western beats can be adapted. I think that's what make kpop so wonderful - taking in influences from everywhere and making its own flavourful.
It's always evolving, and that's how music should be. If everyone had to remain in their little box, that would result in some boring and redundant music...
Another thing that irks me about the podcast was that they didn’t even address the other big part of their performances: their amazing dance sequences! They don’t just sing!
They did. I didn't transcribe the entire podcast. But they did talk about how confusing it was that BTS and Jung-kook performed choreographed moves that K-pop artists are famous for, but then sang some songs in English and apparently the latter threw them off.
This is why even if I can get trained to sing and consume music in different languages and I am black, I'd rather die on a film set. The music people are not as bright and as welcoming as cinema.
Bong Joon Ho cited Alfred Hitchcock as his inspiration countless times and no film journalist made a caricature of him. I can litter my film with Kurosawa's, Joon Ho, Scorsese's lingua as an African filmmaker, people will recognize it(applaud it) but Jungkook cannot sing in his colonizer's language. Interesting.
Who would think a 26 year old Korean boy could move like MJ and sing like JT and Usher, make a bunch of non-Korean artists Billboard chart winners...all because he decided to make an album in English!?! Jungkook is marvelous and I love that he tried something new. All of the BTS members did and it has been beautiful to watch and listen. Still looking forward to 2025, but in the meantime, very grateful!
I'm really glad they each got to do what they wanted prior to enlisting. Their solo projects were all so different, showing the depth they have within their group.
Jae, I'm suddenly feeling like the proverbial old man on his porch, yelling at the youngins to get off his lawn...! Back in 2008, for KoreAm Journal (that old magazine!), I wrote a screed regarding Korean singers singing in English:
https://edition.pagesuite.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=be40333e-22e7-43a6-a5df-c1574ba27ecc
My piece is on page 76. But you know, you make an excellent point -- I have never once asked myself, "Why didn't those English-loving miscreants ABBA sing in their Swedish tongue?" For myself, I don't think it's because they were white folks, but rather that they were Swedish and I don't care about Swedes and the preservation of their language (sorry, Swedes!). But I do hold a great deal of cultural baggage for Hangul. It's my first language and damn it, it better not be going anywhere, so when I see it happening in Korea, that hurts. I do find it curious why anybody who is not Korean (or has some deep love for the language) would have misgivings about this, though. You are absolutely correct -- if the critic feels that Korean artists need to stay in their language lane, then that critic should desire the same for any other non-English speaking artist.
Of course, we all know why everyone is singing in English, as you point out, too -- money. Because of your most excellent essay here, I got curious about how ABBA was seen in Sweden:
https://www.quora.com/Do-Swedes-resent-that-ABBA-became-famous-singing-in-English-rather-than-their-native-Swedish
So yeah, money. Money money money. Or, more precisely, dollar dollar dollar...
Excellent piece, Sung. Thank you for sharing! I actually share many of the same sentiments. Even with K-dramas, so many Korean titles and the Romanized versions of English words. We just watched the film "Champion," and that was a case where the Korean title was the same, just written in Hangul. Whenever I see a new word I don't recognize, I have to wonder if it's a new and modern Korean word or if it's an English word that I'm just not getting. lol
I've been writing about music and interviewing musicians from all over the world for a long time, and almost every non-American artist I've talked to mentioned how it was a dream to break the U.S. market. The U.S. is the world's No. 1 market for music, so I understand why people are catering to English speakers. Like most other people from English-speaking countries, we tend to be monolingual. (Not a literal "we" since clearly you and I speak at least 1 foreign language.)
In JK's case with "Golden," he has said that he wasn't making a K-pop record, he was making a pop record for the international market. Is it pop? Is it K-pop? Why not both?
The thing I don't understand is they are talking about JK as doing Kpop but it's an american album, or JK never said it's a Kpop album, the music industry labeled it as Kpop, the journalists labeled it as Kpop.. JK said he wants to do Pop music the american Music, so I don't understand the contreversy here and why is it considered as Kpop , just because he's Korean so he's music must be labeled Kpop?!
The podcast was so cringe! It was clearly uninformed and I appreciate the way you have articulated why. I've been annoyed at the NYTimes for their historically poor work on this topic. There is so much great music from Korea, including the kpop/ idol music, and it's a shame that the focus was on creating artificial boundaries, or upholding irrelevant criteria to determine if it is kpop enough for Jung Kook to sing in English. Ugh!
I fell in love with BTS because of how the sound of their language contributed to their music and showed me something new. I find their music in Korean to be different and more interesting to my ears than their western pop songs, but I can love their English language songs for different reasons. They carry different ideas, memories and musicianship. I fully support BTS in their endeavors to try different things and trust them to put their best foot forward.
An important nuance that I thought was missing in the podcast is how BTS pays tribute to the black music that they are inspired by. Especially in their later music, they seem to have intentionally avoided being appropriative of black music, and in various ways acknowledged their respect towards specific artists directly, unlike some other kpop groups. Even highly westernized pop songs like "Dynamite, Butter and Standing Next to You" are obvious tributes to MJ. I think this context is important to explaining their music choices, the quality of their character and challenging the notion that they are just selling out. Not many can emulate MJ and still maintain their own artistry! Thanks for your writing!
(Tone: Grateful) I absolutely Love K-pop and couldn’t agree more with your analysis and summary of the podcast. Thank you for writing and sharing; I’m very grateful! 🙏
Thank you for taking the time to read it, Scarlett. I know it was a long one!
Great article!! As a non-American but also non-Korean fan of kpop it's always very interesting but also super.... idk, irksome? Hearing certain US Americans talk about musicians from other parts of the world because they have this way of speaking as though they're objective and could have no bias leaking into their opinions and its like... idk, when you're used to being the center of the universe, that absolutely can and does give you a biased point of view? It's how a conversation like the Popcast can happen.
like when they talk about the globalisation of kpop, it's only ever focused on the United States and supposedly appealing to Americans- don't get me wrong, a lot of kpop companies absolutely do want a piece of the US pie and understandably- I'm not denying that but it's the notion that they would only release an English song to "hook" America. 1.4 billion people speak english- but yeah, okay. It's only the US that kpop is interested in. I also think people have thos idea that speaking English = white but thats just plainly not true becuase, yk, colonialism.... Also THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING COLONIALISM like again... US American media in particular saying stuff about Korea always makes me so 😒 because well... Obvious reasons.
Also the one other thing which is just small and petty on my part but the comment about Ive made me laugh bc, again, it's centering the US in a convo about kpop but also!! Ive just did a successful, well promoted tour in Australia so the idea they aren't being listened to outside Korea is already disproven like.... cmon NYT, do a lil better. But also it just reminds me of the fact I always remember someone saying bts isn't really successful because they "never get radio play" in the US (as if radio is the way to tell what's hot in 2023 but I digress) and again it made me laugh because I'm not particularly a bts fan but I do like some of their songs, and do you know how I know those songs? MY LOCAL RADIO STATION PLAYS THEM! Jungkook has a little intro where he says the station name and everything, its cute. So again it's just that thing of standing back and understanding that not everywhere is the same and while what she said might be true to some degree in her neck of the woods, down here in mine it doesn't ring true and kpop has been getting decent coverage and playtime for a long time- it's the US media that acts like pop groups being, yk, popular, is strange or scary, when it's actually very common.
Anyway, all in all totally agree and great article- just thought I'd also share my perspective and why it can be frustrating as a global kpop fan.
I was a guest on a podcast that will air in the upcoming days, and we discussed some of the things you mentioned, like how English is the universal language people use to communicate in many ways and also about sometimes the wrong people pontificating about being experts on a culture they only know about in a superficial way. I loved reading your thoughts and appreciate your sharing them with everyone!
The way the podcast strips BTS of their artistry/growth and disallows both their Koreanness *and* English usage is pretty dang narrow and intellectually twisted. Yeesh. Unplug their mics.
I kept waiting for it to get better...but it didn't.
Also, I don't know why she talked about K-pop artists going into acting and then mentioned "Parasite." I mean... what?! There are plenty of idol actors who're huge. She could've mentioned IU, for instance, who was wonderful in "Broker" (among so many other things).
That "Parasite" reference is especially annoying. If the Jeopardy category was artistic excellence, they both would fit, but randomly naming "Things with Koreans" is pretty lame. There are choices galore when it comes to Korean singers who can act and vice versa. (Also enjoyed Bae Suzy in Doona; and Yoona & Junho in King the Land).